Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Wolfman on Thu May 10, 2012 11:00 pm

^ Mostly because everytime someone tries to argue with Rogan, they can't talk because he never let's them. His arguments were ridiculous too, if you can call that arguments.

I love MMA but Joe Pothead was wrong.

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Fisticuffa on Thu May 10, 2012 11:18 pm

Joe Rogan the pothead makes less sense than crackhead Roger Mayweather.



Joe Rogan don't know shit about Boxing.

Dibella comes across as stupid, there should have been a better representative for Boxing but oh well, in the end what matters is who is selling the PPV's and getting the viewers worldwide and in that UFC is not even close to Boxing.

Example:
"Meanwhile, the press office explained yesterday that Canelo Promotions Alvarez managed 29.4 points on Saturday in the Valley of Mexico and 26.1 points nationally. On that occasion the undefeated Guadalajara retained his WBC super welterweight belt against universal Shane Mosley by wide decision in 12 episodes,

A spokesman explained that "a rating point represents about 600 000 households, which increased by 26.1 points yields 15 million 660 thousand TV sets tuned in to Channel 5 in the country." It is estimated that each unit is compared to an average of three to four people."
Above is from google translator.

I tell you what, we will check back in say 25 years and we will see where the respective sports are at.

Boxing has proven itself over centuries as being able to outlast all the predictions of doom & gloom from people far more important than baldy & pothead, attempts to ban it by the powers that be.

UFC?

A mere blip in time compared to that.

Check:
Besides your own wishing thinking, what would that be based on, bud?

MMA has already shown that they haven't been able to sustain an audience in the long term in some nations already, including Japan and Brazil. In Japan they used to do shows in front of 30, 40, even 50 million television viewers and now MMA in Japan is basically on life support with interest having decreased a ton over there. Brazil has already had a couple of peaks and valleys during the Vale Tudo days. Was popular down there in around the 1930's before it fell off. Then it was again popular in the 50's and early 60's when they used to do shows in front 40 thousand people inside soccer stadiums, as well as having a weekly broadcast shown nationwide. That peak period was too short term as the sport was again forced back underground with little to no fanfare backing it.

Even in the States we've been seeing signs of interest in it being on the decline, which is no surprise just because the US are about as fickle as it gets when it comes to televised sports. Or even televised shows in general. A lot of them receive some interest in the early stages, yet see the ratings fall off the charts. But as far as sports goes, we've seen plenty of sports be able to gain some public interest once introduced to American television audience, but save for the NFL, there hasn't been many at all that have been able to sustain it over the long haul. Boxing, Soccer, Tennis, Hockey, Indy Cars, Nascar, Horse Racing, etc., etc. Shit, not that it's a sport, but since it was on sports channels all the time in recent years, even interest poker has dropped off a ton over what it was 6 or 7 years ago. Boxing had their boom period in the late 70's and into the early 80's on network television, and then interest fell off considerably. On the strength of Pele playing for New York, soccer enjoyed some success on network television during that same time period of the late 70's, but ratings were non-existent for ABC a few years later and it was off the air. Tennis had the big boom period during the 80's with McEnroe, Connors, Borg, Lendl, and them guys, yet weren't able to sustain the interest in the sport for all that long and interest fell significantly. Hockey had some success for FOX when they first signed with them in the mid 90's, yet it wasn't but a few years later when FOX's audience for hockey fell by half. Indy Car racing used to be huge in the States, and not just the Indy 500. Now they're almost non-existent on television as far as ratings go, with even the 500 having lost a ton of it's prestige. People gravitated to Nascar then, but even that has seen a significant decrease in interest the last few years. I just checked some numbers last night in fact, and Nascar drew an average race rating of 5.8 in 2003 when they were in the midst of their boom in popularity. The last couple of years they've barely averaged half of that with their number now down in the 3.5 range. They had a 3.3 average rating in 2010 after having had a 5.5 average rating only four years earlier in 2006. So much for the thought of that being the "fastest growing sport" out there, which what it was considered less than a decade ago. Horse Racing had their "golden age" in the 70's when you could find all the big Grade 1 races on television and then some. The horses back then were superstars and were featured about as much as any other sports star was. Nowadays network television only shows but a few races a year from that sport, with the Derby about the only one that still grabs any sort of rating they could brag about. Even established sports like the NBA and MLB have seen interest decrease after having some higher points in the last 20 or 30 years. Save for the NFL, who has managed to maintain and even slightly increase the audience they grew back in the 70's, practically every sporting entity has seen a significant dropoff in the American public eyes after gaining some kind of peak period of interest over the last 35 or so. Everyone has besides the NFL, and despite what Uncle Dana would have you believe, there will never be a day when the television public will enamoured with the UFC the way it is the NFL.

As much as you want to see MMA growing, and growing, and keep growing, the recent history of sports in general says that is going to be a longshot at best. And MMA is almost 20 tears old to the American public and has a long history that can be tarced bacl many decades. People gain an interest in something and then soon lose interest in that same thing all the time. I used to have a high interest in certain sports like hockey, indy racing, and some others, that I can't even be bothered with nowadays. My interest goes elsewhere. Just like sports (or anything on tv as we've seen with many hit shows plummeting in the ratings before too long) has shown to the audience as a whole. They lose a lot of their initial interest after a time. It's tough to grow interest in something over the haul, and especially so when it's a combat sport which are often viewed as anti-establishment. i.e. They have a limited ceiling because a large portion of the population will never get behind something like that, and will instead do their best to damage its position in sports.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/1-reason-you-think-ufc-s-declining-2088077/index17.html#post68996233

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Fisticuffa on Thu May 10, 2012 11:34 pm

Originally Posted by Sharkey
I'm sure the Klitschkos fighting out of Europe has much to do with their lack of popularity in the States. But, on the other hand, they are a huge attraction overseas and get big ratings when their fights are shown on German TV with the RTL network;

Die neuen Quotenkönige - Vitali und Wladimir Klitschko
Wladimir-Haye (RTL, 02.07.11): 15,50 Mio / 67,0% MA
Vitali-Briggs (RTL, 16.10.10): 13,29 Mio / 57,2% MA
Wladimir-Austin (RTL, 10.03.07): 12,89 Mio / 52,9% MA
Wladimir-Chambers (RTL, 20.03.10): 12,59 Mio / 52,8% MA
Wladimir-Brewster (RTL, 07.07.07): 11,21 Mio / 56,8% MA
Vitali-Kevin Johnson (RTL, 12.12.09): 11,16 Mio / 47,4% MA
Vitali-Solis (RTL, 19.03.10): 10,98 Mio / 40,7% MA
Vitali-Gomez (RTL, 21.03.09): 10,88 Mio / 47,6% MA
Wladimir-Chagaev (RTL, 20.06.09): 10,39 Mio / 50,6% MA
Wladimir-Peter (RTL, 11.09.10): 9,70 Mio / 48,2% MA
Vitali-Peter (RTL, 11.10.08): 9,67 Mio / 48,3% MA
Wladimir-Rahman (RTL, 13.12.08): 9,67 Mio / 41,6% MA
Vitali-Adamek (RTL, 10.09.11): 9,51 Mio / 45,1% MA
Wladimir-Thompson (RTL, 12.07.08): 9,22 Mio / 46,2% MA

I'd say getting 9 to 15 million viewers (and often over viewer 50% share...half the country watching TV is watching them) in a country that maybe has a population of 80 million is pretty damn big.

A couple of sources for those numbers;

"Afterwards, as many as 14.08 million viewers watched WBC World Champion Vitali Klitschko successfully defend his title against the American boxer Shannon Briggs. An average 13.29 million viewers witnesses Klitschko’s clear win on points, an overwhelming 57.2 per cent of the total audience market."

http://www.rtlgroup.com/www/htm/home_news.aspx?ID=FCE80C5132AE4AB79AC3E085E0E0A679

"The Haye fight was in over a 150 countries; the unification fight with Wladimir got over 16 million viewers in Germany, which was the highest rating they ever got for a Klitschko fight. It was a phenomenal rating; it’s higher than the German soccer team."

http://www.maxboxing.com/news/max-boxing-news/they-may-not-play-in-peoria-but-theyll-play-in-poland

Big TV numbers over there, as they do with live audience in attendance for their fights with 40, 50, even 60 thousand showing up to watch them. Their also big commercial successes often seen having on a number of spots on TV selling all sorts of products. They're a huge deal over there even if they're not as well known in America as some of the past champions. Again, American popularity is offset by something on a global stage.


Originally Posted by Sharkey
Denial?
The other poster said "Boxing is a flourishing sport all around the world". Now if the following numbers from the last couple of years don't back up his statement what numbers would?

"The Sunday fight between Daisuke Naito and Koki Kameda did magnificent TV ratings as expected in Japan, with the fight averaging 43.1% and peaking at 52.1% on TBS (Tokyo Broadcasting System)."

http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/11/30/1180013/naito-kameda-fight-does-ridiculous

"Mikkel Kessler has been a big TV draw in the past in his native Denmark, and Saturday's comeback win over Mehdi Bouadla was no different.

On the Danish network TV2, Kessler's fight with Bouadla peaked at 1.137 million viewers, or in more remarkable terms, a 66% share of the TV audience."

http://www.badlefthook.com/2011/6/6/2209414/mikkel-kessler-tv-ratings-denmark-next-fight

"Mikkel Kessler´s fourth-round TKO victory over Gusmyr Perdomo drew an impressive peak market share of 72 per cent on Danish free-to-air broadcaster TV2."

http://www.sportbusiness.com/news/170466/kessler-fight-draws-72-per-cent-market-share

"‘We are all very happy RTL our German TV broadcaster had 16.2 million [viewers]. It was a huge event, very happy about the win there are no questions after that fight maybe about his [Haye’s] little toe,’ Boente said."

http://www.boxingfutures.com/news/0715-boente-says-klitschkos-could-fight-england

"Klitschko beats Haye via 12 round UD.The much needed, much anticipated heavyweight fight between David Haye and Wladimir Klitscho finally took place Saturday night in Hamburg, Germany in front of an astounding 500 million world-wide tv viewers."

http://boxingsociety.com/allboxing/results/haye-falls-to-klitschko-loses-wba-belt.html

"Say what you want about David Haye, the new WBA heavyweight champion, but he sure is one of the hottest commodities in world boxing right now. Proving beyond any doubt he is an attraction in Europe, Haye pulled in close to a million Sky T.V pay-per-view sales for his winning fight with Nikolai Valuev. And, according to various reports, the big money offers have been pouring in ever since."

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=21883&more=1

"WBC junior middleweight champion Saul Alvarez is quickly proving to be Mexico’s biggest boxing star after reportedly drawing 36 million viewers for his recent 12th round knockout win over British challenger Ryan Rhodes last Saturday night."

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2011/06/alvarez-draws-36-million-viewers-in-mexico-for-rhodes-bout/

http://www.boxingscene.com/saul-alvarez-generating-huge-tv-ratings-mexico--40673

"It's being said Morales-Maidana a rating figure of 25 points, which is a little higher than the huge rating generated by Saul 'Canelo' Alvarez's title winning effort over Matthew Hatton in March."

http://www.boxingscene.com/morales-maidana-draws-huge-rating-beats-canelo-hatton--38133

"Nearly five million viewers watched last Saturday's big professional boxing event from Mulheim, Germany."

http://www.boxingscene.com/abraham-nearly-five-million-watch-king-arthurs-return--36133

Etc, etc.

As far as only a couple of big PPV events a year goes in North America, that's pretty much been the norm for boxing for ages. Even in the pre-PPV era when closed circuit was relied upon. Even going back to the Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Duran days. Most years there was only two or three closed circuit events such as the two Leonard-Durans fights and the Holmes-Ali fight in 1980. That was it for closed circuit action that year.

"In 1986 there were only two closed circuit fights: Marvin Hagler's middleweight title defense against John Mugabi and a triple header featuring Thomas Hearns, Barry McGuigan and Roberto Duran in seperate bouts."

- page 137 of Stephen Brunt's 'Mean Business'

The big money closed circuit events back then involved only the big money fighters. Just like the big money PPV events in boxing nowadays involve the big money fighters. The rest of the major fights find their way to television in North America or somewhere else around the world. Over here the likes of HBO & Showtime can afford to pay the fighters six and even seven figures to give us important fights. Shit, we've even had a number of legitimate championship fights shown on those premium channels during the last year or so without them asking us to fork over PPV dollars...Marquez-Katsidis (Champ vs #1 contender), Martinez vs Pavlik & Dzinziruk, Pascal-Hopkins for light heavyweight championship (twice...two top 5 LHW fought on one broadcast as well), Klitschko vs Haye, etc. Legit championship fights that Dana White would be asking PPV dollars for. They've also given us plenty of other important fights too with both fighters being ranked inside the top 5 for their division...Donaire-Montiel, Ortiz-Berto, Rios-Acosta, Rios-Antillon, Khan-Maidana, Bradley-Alexander, Klitschko-Adamek, Lopez-Salido, Mares-Agbeko, etc. All fights between two guys ranked top 5 at the time. Showtime is showing the finals of the Super Six shortly too without asking for PPV dolars, and that's a fight between the two top rated guys in their division, thus it will decide the Ring Magazine championship;

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings/super-middleweight

You say MMA puts on multiple PPVs a month sometimes? I say it must suck somewhat to be an MMA-only fan then. Boxing fans in North America (and throughout the world) gets big fights and legitimate championship fights all the time without forking over PPV dollars. All the time. Granted, Dana White is giving fans a couple of championship fights off of PPV shortly here, so he does get credit for that. First time since Rampage-Henderson, I believe?

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by StillWill on Thu May 10, 2012 11:46 pm

Kid Chocolate wrote:Rogan the pothead made DiBella the Harvard graduate sit quiet like a bitch.

Deal with it
ufc is dying, deal with it

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Fisticuffa on Thu May 10, 2012 11:48 pm

Nearly 100 years later, people remember & are naming neighborhoods after a not so well known Johnny Kilbane:





I have a hard time imagining the same for Jose Aldo 100 years later considering the kind of idiots I encounter among those who call themselves MMA fans.

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by KSW on Fri May 11, 2012 12:50 am

Fisticuffa is always bringing the big guns

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by StillWill on Fri May 11, 2012 1:03 am

I hate to always post about MMA with a negative attitude, but the sport has really taken a turn for the worse these past 5 years... Its hard to be excited now. Its just not the same product.

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by KSW on Fri May 11, 2012 1:17 am

StillWill wrote:I hate to always post about MMA with a negative attitude, but the sport has really taken a turn for the worse these past 5 years... Its hard to be excited now. Its just not the same product.
I understand your frustration but I´m still positive about mma. If M-1 or KSW becomes big in all of Europe everything will be great. Maybe JMMA will rise again and DREAM becomes the new PRIDE like it was supposed to. I´m looking 5 years ahead.

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by wekka on Fri May 11, 2012 2:51 am

Johan Lofgren wrote:
StillWill wrote:I hate to always post about MMA with a negative attitude, but the sport has really taken a turn for the worse these past 5 years... Its hard to be excited now. Its just not the same product.
I understand your frustration but I´m still positive about mma. If M-1 or KSW becomes big in all of Europe everything will be great. Maybe JMMA will rise again and DREAM becomes the new PRIDE like it was supposed to. I´m looking 5 years ahead.

DREAM cards are becoming like those reunion shows from sitcoms fifteen years prior to the reunion.

Once every now and then, while highlighting current stars and the stars of yesteryear. They'll still be entertaining but your energy and excitement would be better spent elsewhere. JMMA is doing well enough right now without DREAM. They just need something to get interest high so they can return to large scale events on a consistent basis but it isn't looking good right now. DEEP, Shooto, and Pancrase are all putting on good events as of late. RINGS is back and has serious potential down the road and The Outsider is as fun as ever.

In regards to the cage, it honestly would be bad if it were used with rules that highlight entertainment. They can't allow stalling as much as they do against the fence. If they arent throwing a sufficient amount of strikes or looking to improve position, they need to reset the fighters. Just thinking about knees to the head of a grounded opponent, stomps, soccer kicks, etc in a cage sounds fun as hell

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Fisticuffa on Fri May 11, 2012 8:15 am

Btw the fight that put UFC on the radar was Bonar-Griffin which was nothing but an ugly sloppy Boxing fest IIRC.

Ugly sloppy Boxing fest's that you would see from club level Boxers or lower are what get the crowd's roaring and fans flocking to TV for UFC events.

I watch bare knuckle Boxing too sometimes that the Irish travelers put on youtube & I have seen better technique from them than some so called professional fighters in the UFC (the Maia-Weidman fight looked like it belonged at bum fights).

If the fighters go to the ground for any significant length of time the booing begins.

Basically to the casual crowd whom UFC relies on far more than any of the elitist douche bags, the most appealing component of an MMA event is sloppy Boxing.

So now you can put the two and two together about the future of Boxing.

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Misowaman on Fri May 11, 2012 9:48 am

Don't disgrace Boxing by associating it with Griffin/Bonnar.

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Wolfman on Fri May 11, 2012 11:15 am

Fisticuffa wrote:Btw the fight that put UFC on the radar was Bonar-Griffin which was nothing but an ugly sloppy Boxing fest IIRC.

Yeah that's true. I remember seeing people saying it was a great intense fight, hyping it like it was some classic Pride style fight what shows what MMA is all about.

Even Pot Rogan, the guy that says he watches MMA since Greece praised the fight as something extraordinary. OK it might be entertaining, but just as a bar brawl is too. It should not be seem as a fight that defines the sport.


Don't disgrace Boxing by associating it with Griffin/Bonnar.

lol! Yeah it's almost a heresy.

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Fisticuffa on Fri May 11, 2012 4:07 pm

1.5 million buys for America in the final tally:

http://www.boxingscene.com/mayweather-cotto-generates-15-million-buys-94-million--52765

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Fisticuffa on Sun May 13, 2012 6:21 pm

With MMA all but dead in Japan as far as TV ratings go lets take a look how well did Boxing do against Sumo, Japans favorite combat sport past time. Once you look below the top rated Combat sport in all of Japan for the year of 2011 was Boxing.

The Year: 2011
The Setting: Japan

Top Rated MMA show for 2011 *** note only MMA event to hit the top 10***

12/31/2010 Dynamite MMA tournament on TBS 9.8%


Top Rated Sumo event for 2011

09/25/11 Sumo-Akibasho final day 15.6%

Top Rated Boxing event for 2011
08/31/11 Kameda , David Boxing 16.7%


rest of 2011 for Boxing that hit top 10 in viewership for that day

01/31/2011 Boxing Miura , Shimoda, Uchiyama Lee 7.6%
I0/11/11 Sho Ioka Ioka, Oredon Boxing 10.9%
08/10/11 a Sho fan Hernandez's first world title defense against Sho-Ioka Ioka a boxing 16.6%
12/07/11 World Title Match Takeshi Kamedao × Teparitto 14.7% 3 times that day 10.2%, 9.8%
11/06/11 Esquivel Yamanaka × × Bosukiero-Ao The REAL • World Championship Boxing Nippon Television 8.4
04/08/11 Ao Sen war Nishioka × Gonzalez & Hozumi Hasegawa World Championship Boxing 10.5%
11/06/11 Yamanaka x Ao Real World Championship Boxing 8.4%

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f53/2011-japan-boxing-king-combat-sports-ratings-look-back-redux-2090371/

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by parliamentfunk on Sun May 13, 2012 10:35 pm

Kid Chocolate wrote:Rogan the pothead made DiBella the Harvard graduate sit quiet like a bitch.

Deal with it
my nigga

anyone can edit a youtube video to support their statement
but point is that there's 2 big fights in boxing each year, ufc puts on at least 10 classic fights a year
now i agree there needs to be a "classing" up of the sport, a little less tapout, and little more addias/everlast

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Fisticuffa on Sun May 13, 2012 11:18 pm

parlimentfunk wrote:
Kid Chocolate wrote:Rogan the pothead made DiBella the Harvard graduate sit quiet like a bitch.

Deal with it
my nigga

anyone can edit a youtube video to support their statement
but point is that there's 2 big fights in boxing each year, ufc puts on at least 10 classic fights a year
now i agree there needs to be a "classing" up of the sport, a little less tapout, and little more addias/everlast


"Classic" usually means a fight of some significance, if there are 10 "classics" each year that's 120 "classics" in 10 years. Seems like UFC fans lap up everything & anything as "classic" just because pot head Rogan & Dana hype it up.

You ask me for MMA classics?

Fedor vs Nog, Fedor vs CC, Shogun vs Hendo, Shogun vs Lil Nog, Shogun vs Machida I (at that time Machida was "elusive" & "unbeatable" & people were talking about "Machida era", Shogun came in and derailed the hype even though he didn't get the decision), fights like that.

Brock vs Carwin?

It's sole significance was how embarrassing a fight can be between two fighters who are not even close to world class but are hyped up as one by the UFC. As a guy once said "it was like watching two gorillas fight over the last banana".

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Wolfman on Sun May 13, 2012 11:31 pm

As a guy once said "it was like watching two gorillas fight over the last banana".


lol! Whoever said that was spot on. Best description i ever heard.

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by StillWill on Sun May 13, 2012 11:34 pm

lol at two boxing fights per year. there is world class boxing practically every week.

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Fisticuffa on Sun May 13, 2012 11:38 pm

Double post sorry, so deleted this.


Last edited by Fisticuffa on Sun May 13, 2012 11:43 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by StillWill on Sun May 13, 2012 11:40 pm

"I think Brock Lesnar is already one of the greatest HWs of all time."

-Dana White, pre Velasquez/Lesnar

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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Fisticuffa on Sun May 13, 2012 11:41 pm

Here is an example of how Dana & UFC can get away with ridiculous hyperbole:
I think you are misunderstanding.

When there is a separation of powers like say in boxing, everybody keeps everybody in check. This is why a separation of powers is also known as a system of "checks and balances"

So for example if Golden Boy Promotions or whomever calls Gerry Cooney the greatest fighter that ever lived, other interests keep them in check. That notion that "Gerry Cooney is the greatest fighter ever" becomes irrelevant because of its radicalism and gets flattened like a grape via Larry Merchant, another promotion a writer or whatever

In the MMA (we will say UFC) there is no separation of powers hence no checks and balances. Hence radicalism occurs and remains unregulated. Like "Brock Lesnar is the the greatest fighter ever"

@0:50 Dana is clearly being a farce, and what does he get for being a farce? Joe Rogan patting him on the back and the rest of the UFC bubble patting him on the back. There is no Larry Merchant, Belt orgs, rival promotions, writers (with press credentials) to keep him in check. None. Zero. This is like the WWE model or North Korea model

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oUpTEtaJVOk

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/63634687-post54.html
I remember Larry Merchant outright boycotted calling the RJJ vs Trinidad fight because he saw it as a farce.

You think you will ever see Rogan or Goldie doing that?



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Re: Re examining Rogans arguement vs DiBella

Post by Fisticuffa on Sat May 19, 2012 8:46 pm

I just rewatched the Ali vs Frazier trilogy again, probably for the 20th time or something which got me thinking of the UFC's recent promotion of the smug douche bag Jones vs Rashad Evans as the Ali vs Frazier of MMA.

Apparently the UFC has to drag in Boxing fights from over 45 years ago to promote their product which they claim is so superior, and of course to anyone with an ounce of knowledge about combat sports the comparison is ludicrous on its face.

Ali vs Frazier I & III might be the biggest sporting events of the last century outside of the Olympics and the soccer world cups. They rank along side Louis vs Schmeling I, Louis vs Conn, Marciano vs Walcott I, Ali vs Foreman, Dempsey vs Firpo, and Johnson vs Jeffries as the greatest HW fights of the 20th century.

Ali used to pull in monstrous ratings in general all by himself, so imagine what he must have pulled in with the greatest sports rivalry ever, would not be surprised if half the world was tuned into the fights. I doubt even Jon Jones own neighborhood stopped for his fight against Evans.

And of course the caliber of the fighters was entirely different as is the rivalry. Jones vs Evans is a schoolyard quarrel, Frazier hated Ali with every fiber of his being and literally wanted to kill him and almost did. He hated Ali for the things he said & did leading up to the fight and what he put his family through. I don't think he ever truly forgave him to his dying day though publicly he tried to make peace.

This doc explores the fight & the events leading up to it from Frazier's viewpoint:


The fight itself was truly damaging for both boxers. But never before has Frazier spoken of how intent he was on hurting his verbal tormentor, or how badly. Joe speaks of how he hammered away at Ali's body in an effort to stop his internal organs, such as his liver, from being able to function and therefore paralysing Ali - such was Joe's ever too real hatred of his rival. Dr. Ferdie Pacheco, Ali's physician, says he didn't even know who was winning the October 1st battle, such was the dreadful condition both men were left in by the half way stage. "Why are people attracted to boxing?," Pacheco asks. "Look at round 14 of Ali-Frazier 3."

The doctor is referring to the animalistic barbarity that is inside all of us, and how the sport of boxing brings it out - this fight more than any other. Indeed, looking back at footage of The Thrilla," there was little in the way of skill being displayed by the later rounds. By round 10 nothing more than a battle of sheer will, the fight was too much even for hardened and experienced writers like Jerry Izenberg. "I love boxing, and I love these two guys," Izenberg says. "But at that time I hated it. I said to myself, somebody's got to stop this." Ali himself, as has been widely documented, said the fight was the closest thing to death he'd ever experienced. Pacheco says the 14th round is "the closest I've seen to someone killing someone. He [Ali] was very close to killing him."

Frazier was all but blind come the 13th and 14th rounds, and he was unable to see Ali's punches coming at him. Astonishingly, Frazier, when asked how long he'd had trouble with his left eye, which he had been partially sighted in even before the first bell, says since 1964! With only he and trainer Eddie Futch knowing he was practically a one eyed fighter after suffering a training accident in the mid-1960s, Frazier had boxed with just one good eye. How did he do it? "My fights didn't last too long," Joe explained.

But "The Thrilla" had lasted a long time and now he was dangerously close to being completely blind. Ali, himself on the verge or absolute physical exhaustion, hit his bitter enemy with everything he had left, often connecting with flush right hands to the head. Despite this, and despite the intense, well over 100-degree heat that engulfed the almost airless arena, Frazier refused to fall - his sheer dislike for Ali forcing him on.

Then came one of the most important, yet overlooked, moments in heavyweight boxing history. Ali, having emptied himself by hitting Frazier with all he had left in the tank in round 14, staggered back to his corner. Frazier was reeling also, but what Ali said to trainer and corner-man Angelo Dundee proves he was in worse shape than was Joe. "Cut 'em off," Ali gasped to Dundee, who ignored him and continued watering him down for the final round.

The documentary reveals for the first time how we know what Ali said. Marvis Frazier explains how he saw Joe's stable mate, Willie "The Worm" Monroe, who was sat over near Ali's corner of the ring, begin frantically signalling with his arms. At the time, with all the activity going on in the Frazier corner, no-one knew what "The Worm" was trying to say. Today, Marvis knows what Munroe did in 1975 - he had heard Ali tell Dundee he'd had enough. How different heavyweight boxing history may have been if Joe's corner knew Ali was ready to quit. Would Joe have been allowed to come out for the 15th, and upon doing so would Ali not have been there to meet him? Joe Frazier certainly believes so, as does Dave Wolf, a then member of Joe's camp.

History instead tells of how the great Eddie Futch, caring nothing for the rewards of victory his fighter may or may not have gone on to receive, pulled his man out for safety reasons. When asked on film, some 32 years after the fight, if he'd have been willing to have risked his life by going out for the 15th round, Frazier answered instantly, "Yeah."

"When the two best fighters in the world are getting together and one of them is blind! You can't ignore that. It's a signal of how sick the sport of boxing is, and it's a signal of how dumb Joe Frazier was. I don't want to step on Joe Frazier, but Joe Frazier was dumb," are Pacheco's thoughts on Joe's stubbornness, bravery, stupidity, drive, determination or whatever you think it was that Frazier had inside necessary to even allow him to want to fight on while almost blind.

Today, as told by writer Thomas Hauser, Frazier seems to have no sympathy for Ali's condition. Even going as far as to state with a smile that he "did that" to Ali, Joe is unable to forget the awful things Ali said and did to him.

"That's what gets people killed in boxing, when the fight becomes more important than life and death," Pacheco says. How close both Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier came to death that sweltering night in October 1975.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=17850&more=1
To compare such legends & legendary fights to something like Jones vs Evans, well just one more example of the UFC trying to ride the coat tails of Boxing as it has always tried to do.


Fisticuffa

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